Wednesday, 28 July 2010

Ravenous Wednesday with Special Guest Lisa Brackmann!

Good morning, Ravenous Wednesday Regulars and any new guests we have amongst us today! If you're new, belly up to the bar and ask for your favorite beverage (if you're a regular, you know the drill and where I hide all the alcohol). In honor of our guest today, we also have a full range of dim sum (hot pork bun, anyone?).

Today is one of our special guests in that she is not a Ravenous Romance author. However she is a staunch supporter of RR and a frequent visitor on RR Wednesdays.

I have known Lisa for many years; she is, in fact, largely responsible for my love of reading and for introducing me to Classic Star Trek via the Trouble With Tribbles episode. So it's a pleasure to host her here today and I'm hoping her post on gender expectation and dynamics will provoke some interesting conversation!


Lisa's debut novel, Rock Paper Tiger, has been favorably reviewed in Publisher's Weekly
(Starred review!), the New York Times, and the Boston Herald, just to name a few. Most recently RPT received a little blurb in (wait for it) the July 30th issue of Entertainment Weekly. Can we give a WOOT for Ms. Brackmann? A SQUEEE will do nicely too.

And, as you can see, her cat Ghost likes it too! Yes. I really did have to include this picture. :-)

Here's a brief blurb on the book:


Iraq vet Ellie McEnroe is down and out in China, trying to lose herself in the alien worlds of performance artists and online gamers. When a chance encounter with a Uighur fugitive drops her down a rabbit hole of conspiracies, Ellie must decide who to trust among the artists, dealers, collectors and operatives claiming to be on her side – in particular, a mysterious organization operating within a popular online game.


And now on with the post! Please welcome Lisa Brackmann!



I know I shouldn’t start a post with a disclaimer, but I think I have to start this one with two.


Here I am, your guest on Ravenous Wednesday, and my book is not romance, erotic or otherwise. ROCK PAPER TIGER is a quirky thriller, character-driven suspense.


Second disclaimer: I don’t intend this post as any kind of reviewer bash. I’ve gotten a lot of positive and insightful reviews ((rather than flogging them here, if you’re interested, check out my website). It’s been one of the most gratifying things about the publication process—feeling that my work has connected with others, both those who read professionally and those who read for enjoyment.


Okay, I hope that’s sufficient disclaiming. Because among the reviews I’ve gotten for the book, there were a few lines from reviewers that had me scratching my head, and that I think might point to some larger issues in gender dynamics that would be interesting to discuss.


My main character, Ellie, is a twenty-something woman, lost in Beijing. She’s an Iraq war vet, recovering from traumatic injuries, physical and mental, and coping not very well with getting dumped by her husband, whom she followed to China and who has left her for a Chinese woman (who presumably lacks Ellie’s considerable baggage). Ellie is unhappy, unstable and barely hanging on to a fragile new life she’s trying to create out of the ruins of her old one. Her sort-of boyfriend, the artist, Lao Zhang, is more of a “Friend with Benefits” than a real lover, and that’s as much as Ellie wants, or at least as much as she can cope with. A chance encounter with a dissident Uighur fugitive crashing at Lao Zhang’s place drops her down a rabbit hole of conspiracies, and Ellie finds herself on the run, chased by Chinese and American agents whose motives and loyalties she can only begin to guess. Her only clues come from a secret society operating within a popular online game—and she doesn’t know who the players are, or what game it is that they’re really playing.


So that’s the background.


I’d be lying if I said that I don’t mind negative reviews—you know, we all want to be perfect and our every sentence loved, right? But I don’t expect that everyone is going to love my book or even like it. Heck, I doubt if anyone could beat me up about deficiencies in my work as much as I can beat up myself.


Where I do get confused is when a reviewer misinterprets my intentions—when I’m being misread, in the literal sense of the word.


I wonder, is it me? Did I not write that clearly? Am I letting something out of my head that I didn’t mean to? Where did we go wrong here?


One of the reviews that had me the most perplexed was one that stated I had portrayed Ellie as “sexy” and yet the book is “curiously chaste” and that, well, most of the men in it aren’t very nice, or are at best, “idealized.”



I’m guessing “idealized” refers to the artist, Lao Zhang. I can’t really discuss this without giving away too much of the plot, but, yes, he’s idealized. He’s hardly in the book; he’s “The Man Who Wasn’t There,” and that’s the only way an idealized partner can exist, in the fantasy space of your own head. We’re free to create whatever version of him we want to, like an avatar in an online game.


Let me state what my actual intentions were. I didn’t intend for Ellie to be a “sexy” character at all. I described her as being cute, in a standard, all-American kind of way. She goes off to war as a 19 year old, and in her own words, she fucks around (and the language here is intentional­—more on that later). She finds a regular partner in the man who will become her husband, Trey, but their relationship begins in a dangerous, poisonous atmosphere, where violence and abuse are embedded in the environment.


It’s a war zone. On top of that, think Abu Ghraib.


By the time Ellie gets to China, she is injured in body and soul, fearful of intimacy both sexual and otherwise, trying to find a place in the world at the same time that she pushes away any kind of real connections. She spends a lot of the book questioning her relationship with Lao Zhang, what it actually means, whether he really cares about her and how much she should risk for their friendship.


She’s a mess. And I’m trying to understand how this translates to “sexy.”


Is it because she’s able to find sexual partners in a war zone? I mean, you’re in a situation where the ratio of men to women is something like six to one (at best), you’re young, you’re reasonably cute—not so hard, right?


Is it because she talks about sex in terms of “fucking”? Is that sexy talk?


Or is it simply because she’s described as being physically attractive (if not a knockout beauty)?


Is being interested in sex on certain terms “sexy”? Is not being interested in sex when you’re running for your life through Bumfuck China “chaste”?


To me, “sexy” implies not just physical attractiveness (if at all), but a certain confidence in the expression of one’s sexuality, plus, an intention of engaging with others in a sexual way.



I wonder if with this I’ve hit one of those weird, gendered walls that I sometimes encounter and that still surprise me. Though I’ve had really awesome, insightful reviews written by men, the few that have had me shaking my head, going, “huh?” were written by men, and the “huh?” aspects always seemed to deal with the main character and with gendered notions of femininity, sexuality and appropriate behavior.


One of my favorite mixed reviews went something like this: “She (Ellie) exists in a drunken, drugged haze, constantly drops the F-bomb and uses all manner of gutter language, and she doesn’t care who she sleeps with.”


Well, okay, then! Now that we’ve hit for the whole “Madonna/Whore” cycle, let’s move on to the “gutter language” discussion.


A few reviewers mentioned Ellie’s R-rated language, and I’m pretty sure not a single one of them was a woman.



I found some support in this notion I had that the reaction to Ellie’s profanity might be a gendered response when I came across this review of Chevy Steven’s debut, STILL MISSING, which is a big hit for her and St. Martin’s Press.


I’m not going to review her book (no book reviews for this debut author), but I’ve read it, and I’ll tell you a little about it.


STILL MISSING deals with a 30ish realtor, Annie, who is kidnapped by a sexual predator and held captive in a mountain cabin for a year. We know all this and we know that she escapes on the first page, because she’s telling the story to her shrink. We find out that her during her year in captivity, she was horrifically abused, beaten and raped. Much of the story is about her life afterwards, how the trauma affects her, how she is and is not able to heal.


What I found admirable about this book is that it in no way eroticizes her ordeal—there’s nothing prurient about it. The story is brutal and unpleasant, and it doesn’t hide the unpleasantness under a veneer of “Happily Ever After.” Annie will never be the same, and the central question of the book is, how does one mend after an experience like that? Is recovery even possible?


You can definitely argue the plusses and minuses in STILL MISSING—what works and what doesn’t, is it misogynistic or isn’t it, lurid or no? I am not going to get into any of that. But I will mention a few statements the (male) reviewer made that had me flabbergasted.


First: “Early in the novel, I wondered if its intended audience was mostly men, because, let's face it, men are more likely to rush out and buy a rape fantasy than women.”


Um.


I don’t even know what to do with this statement.


But I will try to unpack it.


First, I’ll go out on a limb and say that rape fantasies—emphasis on fantasy here, people—are popular among some women as well as some men. Not not NOT actual rape, but fantasies of dominance and submission.


And, did I mention the “not erotic” aspect of the storytelling in this book? I mean, we all have our kinks, and it’s possible that I just don’t have this particular one, but, at no time during my reading of STILL MISSING did I go, “Oh! This is a rape fantasy that I’m sure many men would enjoy!”


Please, men, read the book and tell me if you got off on it. I know I didn’t. And I really don’t want to think that men rushed out and bought the book because it’s, you know, “sexy.” You could make the case that it’s an examination of a certain kind of sexual kink, but STILL MISSING goes out of its way to make that kink the opposite of “sexy.” Even if you bought the book with an expectation that it’s going to be good, kinky fun, I can’t believe you’d feel that way after reading it.


And if you did, I’m calling the cops.


The next thing that flabbergasted me: the main character, Annie, is described as having “a potty mouth.” The reviewer concludes that his main objection to the book was, in fact, its “gratuitous profanity,” and, I quote: “I am far from a prude (ask anyone), but even in this world of dirty talk I think there are words we'd rather not have to wallow in when we're curled up at home with a book…Is this deluge supposed to make us think Annie is hip or cool or sophisticated? Do Stevens and her editors think this stuff (a synonym they should have considered) sells books? Not to me.”


Oooh-kay. We have a main character who was abducted, imprisoned, raped, beaten, starved, otherwise abused, and finally escapes to find that her entire life is in ruins. She’s, you know, just a tad pissed off about all of this. What is she supposed to say?

“Oh, phooey! My life is really stuffy.”


Yeah, that works.


I ask myself, if this were a male character, would his use of profanity be called into question? Would it be considered inappropriate expression? Or is it somehow worse if women are the ones dropping the F-bomb?


I should mention here that a prominent female reviewer objected to Annie’s profanity as well. I will also say that I totally didn’t notice the profanity, or if I did, it seemed completely appropriate to me. Again, your mileage may vary.


So, UnBound, Ravenous Wednesday Peeps…here are the questions I pose to you:


What is “sexy”? Does it imply agency over one’s own desire, or is it all in the eyes of the beholder? “Gutter language,” more okay for men than for women? Is female anger less acceptable than male, and is the expression of it therefore somewhat confusing to certain readers?


Discuss!


Lisa Brackmann has worked as an executive at a major motion picture studio, an issues researcher in a presidential campaign, and was the singer/songwriter/bassist in an LA rock band. She still takes pride in her karaoke-ready repertoire of bad pop hits and an embarrassing number of show tunes. A southern California native, she lives in Venice CA and spends a lot of time in Beijing, China. Her three cats wish she’d stay put.



48 comments:

Dana Fredsti said...

Woot! FIrst!! And now off to catch a plane to L.A., so I'll see everyone later! Drinks on the house!

Jack C. Young said...

You might as well ask how Marilyn Monroe (in her usual "dumb blonde role) is "sexier" than Cate Blanchett's Galadriel or Liv Tyler's Arwen.
I fear most of us guys never graduated from the high school locker room notions of what constituted sex. Do we really put women on a padestle when the topic of such conversations is "How good is she in bed?"
As for "gutter language', it's pretty obvious that women are not "real people" to the objectors (who being men are still consoling themselves that they view women as "special"--when they're not engaged in mastubatory fantasies, that is.
No one objects that Leon Uris' marines dropseveral F-bombs in Battle Cry. (No one even objected to the "rigid digit" in the film when the Sixth Marines are flipping off a competing division.)
But let one of "Charley's Angels do it and you'd think the sky had fallen.
Don't know what we camn do about it either. Short of massive re-education that is. And most males appear to be singualarly adverse to having their fantasies destroyed.
Keep up the struggle Lisa. RTP is an important story and, what's more, is a masterpiece by any criterion. I look forward eagerly to the next book.
Dana, so very good to see you back at the party. I don't know if that WIP has croaked "uncle" yet but am confidant you will bring it around eventually.
Love to Adele and all the folks at RR. And awaaaaaaay we go! :-)

Jack C. Young said...

BTW Dana, have a safe and successful trip to L.A. :-)

Other Lisa said...

Hey, thanks for having me! Um, but isn't it Tuesday?

Other Lisa said...

And Jack, thanks for your thoughtful comment. I really do think all this stuff is pretty interesting, so I am hoping it prompts some conversation.

Jill Lynn said...

Oh my. I adored Ellie. But sexy she was not. *shakes head* I can only reason the reviewer defines sexy as anyone who has sex at all. Maybe he/she's confusing the word sexy with sexual. To me, a sexy person is one who's confident in her physical appearance, comfortable with sharing herself-- body, mind and soul--with a partner of her choosing, and has no regrets about how her libido manifests itself. None of which describes Ellie.

Anonymous said...

I guess right off the cuff, without much in-depth thought, I'd say that "sexy" is a product of one's own sensual agency and confidence, but that "provocative" is in the eye of the beholder. And "provocative" is one of those words that no one uses for men unless they're tempermental artists and showmen.

That comment about rape fantasies was pretty crazy, and I think the reviewer was insane to claim that for men in general. Guys may fantasize about S&M-type stuff just like women do, but I don't think your regular Joe on the street will find any titillation in a book like the one you described.

The commenter above me has an excellent point about using "sexy" and "sexual" interchangeably. Perhaps some readers are used to encountering sexual female characters in certain genres, and then when that crosses over into genres where female MCs have been traditionally shown as somewhat neuter personalities--then it strikes them as out of place?

Clovia

Other Lisa said...

Jill, I may have to quote you on that! Exactly.

Other Lisa said...

Clovia, yeah. I can't tell you how boggled my mind was when I read that. And then "potty mouth." Wow.

Mark said...

Well, you sure unpacked a lot of issues here, Lisa. I'm not sure if it's a male thing or not, but that could be a factor. As an early critic of Ellie's language, I'm not surprised by that coming up again. It is in character, but for some that's hard to get used to. As a rule, many high and mighty lit types claim that this is a distraction, a hand waving, if you will, to the writing. Even in hard crime novels, F-bombs and Sh#t this and that, tend to be infrequent, or depending on the level of tension, not SOP on page 1.

That said, lets go on to the sexy, yet chaste charge. I brought this review to your attention, but only in the spirit of knowing what folks were saying, and hey, it was Boston. In any event, it's damn nice coverage. I think this charge refers to she's getting some, no matter how good, bad or indifferent, but we the readers aren't getting it with her, or seeing it in print. Translated as shut the door syndrome. Great writers do it. One kiss and they're gone only to awaken the next day. Yeah. It's not that there's anything wrong with that treatment per se, but it sort of cheats the reader. They want to see how she handles herself and so on. Anyway, this is something I had to deal with in my work and did. Now if I could just get the powerful to like the rest of it! With global warming as a background, that makes Abu Graib look like Romper Room. The public isn't having any of it, yet.

Anonymous said...

As a reader, the only times the fade-to-black sex scenes feel like a cheat are when the sexual tension has been played up like it's going to happen "on-screen," or I feel like there's something to be revealed in that intimacy. If the tone of the book hasn't led me into the room with them, or the sex is there just to be there, then it's just as bad as a fade-to-black I didn't expect.

And honestly, no f-bomb could throw me out of a passage as quickly as something like "Abu Ghraib" and "Romper Room" being in the same sentence together. It all depends on context.

Clovia

Dana Fredsti said...

hey! 11 comments already and it's not even Wednesday in the U.S. yet! Well, not in California...

what does anyone want to drink?!

And it's great to see new faces here! Hi, Clovia and Mark! Jill, I think you've been here before...And jack, thank you for adding to the discussion right off!

Other Lisa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Other Lisa said...

(Take 2)

Howdy, Mark, thanks for dropping by!

I think that explicit sex is like anything else in a book--does it reveal something important about character or story? (if you are writing erotica I think the rules might be a little different).

I felt that what was important to reveal in RPT was Ellie's sort of lost fumbling in Iraq, her real passion with Trey, and then the juxtaposition with the very creepy...uh, other stuff (since I don't want to post a spoiler). I hope I got that across.

I actually get very annoyed when I read some techno-thriller and there is a random sex scene in the middle of it that doesn't seem motivated by anything other than the desire for a random sex scene.

Dana Fredsti said...

And now it's actually wednesday here in southern Cal (where I'm visiting today). I will be MIA a great portion of the day, so Lisa (as soon as she rejoins us) will be acting as hostess. She's quite capable with the drink and food dispensing skills, so enjoy! I'll stop back later...

Dana Fredsti said...

We're experiencing technical difficulties with Blogger re: some people trying to leave comments - hopefully will get this fixed soon!

Other Lisa said...

I'm here! Anyone need coffee? Or is this more an Irish coffee crowd?

Jack C. Young said...

Coffee sounds great, thank you.
I have to agree with Anonymous on the rape fantasy issue. I don't enjoy seeing (or visualizing) pain or degradation inflicted on anyone, real of fictional. But sometimes it is a necessary part of the integral plot. Would THE COLLECTOR be the same film without the rather graphic torments of the central character who is a blatant control freak? Can you depict life in Auschwitz withour mentioning the sadistic "experiments" of people such as Dr. Mengele?
But simply as an exploitive device such scenes are way over the top.
Guess I'm just too prudish that way. All in all, STILL MISSING sounds like a very thoughtful --and thought provoking--novel. Thank you, Lisa, for calling our attention to it.
And I trust your next project will be as good as RPT.

Other Lisa said...

Okay, I am not having commenting issues but other people still are. I'm clueless. I'm on Safari using Google and it works fine.

Bryn Greenwood said...

I agree that the reviewer may have conflated notions of "sexy" and "sexual" and perhaps merely "sexually active." Let me float something a little further out: maybe the reviewer found Ellie sexy, and that's why he interpreted that as your intention. She's tough, all-American cute, but fragile, too. Lots of men find that combo sexy.

As for the issue of expletives, I think we're still living in a gender-divided world. When men swear, they are sometimes being "rude," but often merely being "manly," and "passionate," and "rough and tumble." All mostly good things. When women swear, they're often considered "crude," or "ignorant," or "trashy."

A man swilling a beer and saying, "That's fucking bullshit," he's just being a man. A woman (like Ellie), swilling a beer and saying, "Fucking bullshit," a large portion of society will think she's probably a little trampy.

It's an ongoing cultural expectation that gets reinforced in film, literature, and music. If I had more time, I'd love to do a quantitative study of expletive use in contemporary films. Just from casual observation, I've noted that female characters are far less likely to swear than male characters, and typically, female expletive use seems to occur in more heightened emotional situations or for comedic effect.

Other Lisa said...

Okay, this may be either a 1. Firefox or 2. OpenID issue. I'm guessing #2.

Yes, I have run into that fragile/damaged = "sexy" conundrum before. It's an interesting one.

Lisa Lane said...

I agree that "sexy" is a mindset: from a sexy mind, everything else "sexy" sort of trickles down (appearance, language, etc.). I also agree that people can have expectations based on gender, and those expectations can affect reviews greatly.

ROCK, PAPER, TIGER sounds like a fun and exciting read. Congrats on all of your success, Lisa.

Dave Fitzgerald said...

First, I have to say you gotta love book reviewers who spout off saying what the author intended to do as if they had some psychic connection. How do you write something so pretentious and expect anyone to take you seriously? What pompous tools!



Hey, pass the jiaozi! Xieh xieh!
-D

Jack C. Young said...

At least this is a well paid pompous fool. Too bad Ms. Stevens isn't as well remunerated as she surely will be if she perseveres in her craft.

Other Lisa said...

Well, reviewers have a job to do and I think for the most part they do it well. But the whole gendered expectations issue seems to be a blind spot for some, in a way that few other issue are, or at least that I can think of.

Other Lisa said...

Jack, I think the deal she got was pretty lucrative from all accounts.

Dana Fredsti said...

Hi, all! Posting a quick comment before running back out, but this discussion brings up a topic that came up with another author friend of mine. She opined that if a good-looking woman (youngish and slender) writes about women being brutalized or horrific things (serial killers and such), she makes more money up front. She named some examples and then quoted the difference in advances for writers who write cozy mysteries, for instance. It was substantial.

thoughts?

Isabel Roman said...

I'm terriby sorry I'm late. Juggling too many things today and work, where I normally hop on here, has been slammed. Hi all! Dana, I'm pinching some G&T :)

Not having read the book, I can't comment on sexy in the story. But I'm going to venture that sexy is different for everyone.

Nope--I don't have a good answer! I'm pretty baffled over that, myself. For instance, why oh why do people consider Scarlett Johanson sexy?

Dana Fredsti said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Other Lisa said...

And, I really do think a lot of the serial killer books out there are pretty prurient and exploitive (for one thing, how many serial killers are actually Evil Geniuses of Crime?). Way too many are about sexual brutalization of women without as I see it anything else behind them.

Rather than naming book names (not that I can think of any at the moment), I'll mention those CSI shows, which strike me as violence porn a lot of the time.

Jack C. Young said...

Sadly porn sells too, violent or otherwise.
Hope everything goes well for you, Dana.

hagelrat said...

Sorry to anyone who has had problems posting comments, sometimes blogger just throws a fit. I've been out this evening but let me know if you are still having probs.

Lisa, welcome, thanks for visiting, I am loving the book and am nearly done, review in the next couple of days!

To everyone else, I can recommend it, excelent reading.

Other Lisa said...

Howdy, Hagelrat, and thanks for having me!

K. A. Laity said...

Is it Wednesday?! Yikes. Well, beaten under by some deadlines and other issues must be my excuse for late arrival -- thanks Dana for the reminder, d'oh!

Having been chastised today for my language, I'd certainly agree that there are a lot of people who just don't think swearing is "lady-like" and that women ought not to do it at all.

To which I say, "Bullshit!" of course.

All right, tea! And then some pink gin ;-) while I read this a little more closely.

Other Lisa said...

Gin's on the house, K.A.! Er, is there tea here?

K. A. Laity said...

Well, C. Margery Kempe fell afoul of the Open ID, but she joins me in offering a belated WOOT for getting in both Publisher's Weekly *and* Entertainment Weekly. That's quite an accomplishment that speaks to the broad base of your appeal.

Gender expectations continue to frustrate women writers in ways that you'd think wouldn't be a problem in the 21st century. Largely we're still bedeviled by antiquated marketing notions. Like the piece in the Guardian about the ubiquity of pink covers for books aimed at girl readers. Inane and irritating: girls cannot be summed up in one colour choice. It's really frustrating.

Jack C. Young said...

Women can't be summed up by any simple designation. Men would throw a tantrum if anyone attempted to pigeonhole them. So why does this nonsense continue?
Maybe a psychiatrist could figure it out. I sure can't.
Hope the tea with pink gin chaser make it easier to swallow Kate. Great to see you here at last. :-)

K. A. Laity said...

Hi Jack! Thanks for the welcome. I konked right out from the heat this afternoon. Now I have the AC on in my study, which makes it bearable (Kipper agrees).

As Lisa's experiences make clear, the combination of sex and women really seems the most volatile and the arena in which "shoulds" really make the presence known. People who seem relaxed in general, show surprisingly rigid beliefs when it comes to women's sexual behaviour.

There's been such a backlash against feminism, especially journalists trying to sell controversy by saying it's unnecessary -- and then setting up women against each other yet again, in pointless exercises like the so-called "Mommy Wars." Anything to divide women and keep them at a disadvantage.

K. A. Laity said...

And I have to say a word in favour of Marilyn Monroe: she's damn funny in Gentlemen Prefer Blondes because she plays with the dumb blonde expectations. After all, the source novel by the wonderful Anita Loos is very smart indeed.

Other Lisa said...

Marilyn Monroe actually fits in well to this discussion. As I understand it, she was a very intelligent woman straight-jacketed by gensered expectations. Sad that she didn't live long enough to experience feminist consciousness raising. I bet she would have gone with it.

Jack C. Young said...

Oh for the days when journalists were journalists rather than fight promoters. Ed Murrow, Chet Huntley or David Brinkley must be spinning in their graves.
Too bad they can't rise as zombies and clear out this current sophomoric crew.

K. A. Laity said...

Sadly true, Jack. The passing of Daniel Schorr this week was the real end of an era.

Lisa, you're so right! Monroe really suffered from gender expectations. She was so funny, it was a shame she didn't get to show it more often. And when you read backstage stories about how actors like Olivier treated her with such contempt as if she were no more than a doll -- well, it's distressing. So many unhealthy attitudes toward sex that put the burden of prudery onto women.

Jack C. Young said...

"It's all HER fault" is the oldest dodge in the world. (It's enshrined in Bereshis/Genesis and perhaps some other examples of literature, sacred or profane.
How cpme it's all the woman's fault when it "takes two to tango"?But logic has never been a strong suit for man men. It's so much easier to react with a jerking knee. More's the pity.

Mark said...

"So many unhealthy attitudes toward sex that put the burden of prudery onto women."

I guess I'm confused about who is doing what to whom. As I understand it the character doesn't actually have sex on camera. She talks about it though. Fair enough. What's the conspiracy in this?

Other Lisa said...

I think this refers back to the Marilyn Monroe discussion, Mark. She was praised for her sex-appeal but punished for it too. It's been a while since I've read about her--if it were more recent I might be able to discuss this a little more articulately. But her autobiography made a big impression on me (I had to read it for some work-related assignment; can't even remember why now!

Dana Fredsti said...

Wow, I'm absent for most of an RR Wednesday and all this intelligent discussion occurs!

Jack, as usual, thank you for being a mainstay of our RR crew and contributing so much to the discussion. It was great to see the usual suspects here and also new folk (Jill, Mark, Clovia, Bryn).

Cat Connor said...

I loved this post!
Have wondered similar things myself over the years.

I write first person character driven suspense/thrillers - female protag (Ellie Conway).
She doesn't swear much but when she does it's during something bad etc, no one has picked up on it and made comment -yet!!

An earlier character of mine dropped F-bombs and "spoke like a sailor" - so said a much respected MALE I knew and advised that I clean up her language, because the story appealed to men but they don't like women cursing like that!!

But I didn't, cos it's how that character spoke and thought. Gutter language is still language and there are plenty of people who have no problem with it and plenty that do.

*shrugs* You can't please everyone!

Heads up men folk - women swear and you haven't lived until you've heard the F-bomb drop from a sweet little old ladies lips.

Other Lisa said...

Hmmm, maybe there's something about female MCs named "Ellie"? ;)