It's another Ravenous Wednesday and, like last week, our special guest author is not a Ravenous Romance writer ... at least not at this time. Who knows what the future holds? Heh heh heh...
Yes, I'm on the Ravenous Romance Press Gang. :-)
Our guest today is Stephen Prosapio, author of the award winning novel Dream War, recently released as an E-book. I am in the middle of my copy and loving it! I was hoping to finish before today's post went up, but the Make Time for Reading Gods have not been kind to me unless a book is small and portable (most of my reading is on the Muni or while walking), which means one of these days (and soon!) I'm gonna have to suck it up and buy a Kindle. So apologies, Steve, for not having my review ready. May I offer you a tasty beverage of your choice to make up for it?
A little teaser from Dream War:
"Decades ago, the CIA developed the technology to enter our dreams and extract information. It was just a matter of time before they took things a little too far..."
There's more to the synopsis, but I think the above is one of the best loglines I've read. Let your imagination take over ... and then read the book!
Last week Lisa Brackmann discussed gender expectation on the part of reviewers and readers. In a continuation of this theme, Stephen has written a wonderful post on cross dressing.
Got your interest? Thought so...
Read on... and welcome Stephen Prosapio to Un:Bound! And if you need me... I'll be in the corner with a glass of wine and Dream War.
Cross Dressing: Writing Characters of the Opposite Sex
Aren’t you sick of reading Melvin Udall?
Okay, so you’ve probably never really read anything by Melvin, the lead character portrayed by Jack Nicholson in “As Good as it Gets” but I’m sure you’ve read authors who utilize his philosophy and method of how to write female characters: “I think of a man and take away reason and accountability.”
If you’re a man, you probably can’t help chuckling a bit at that line. If you’re a woman, you may or may not fight off a smile or laugh, but down deep you’re likely a bit repulsed by the comment. Either way, if that’s as far as we get with the analysis of that line, we’re missing the brilliance—our reaction to the line subconsciously mirrors our reactions to Melvin’s character: to men, he’s a joke. To women, he’s disgusting.
So what does this all have to do with cross dressing? Well figuratively speaking, “cross dressing” or writing opposite sex characters is a challenge for even the best writers. Of course bad writers don’t need sex as an excuse to write poor characters; they can write flat, one-dimensional characters of even their own sex. But when good writers struggle with something en mass, it’s an opportunity for us to examine it and grow. And I may just have a simple solution. I believe it boils down to asking questions and then (gasp) really listening!
“But I listen!” you shout. “I talk with members of the opposite sex all the time!” Here’s a “key” story that illustrates my point: At my office last week a female coworker told me that she and another female coworker got locked out of the office near the end of the day because they’d gone out for a smoking break. Later I’d hear men dismiss as silly that they’d leave without their keys—heck that was my first reaction. So I asked a question, and then listened.
“How did you leave your keys inside?” I asked patting my pants pocket where my keys are always safely with me.
“They were in our purses.”
At that moment the situation became so much more than “keys” and getting locked out. I got a glimpse into one of men and women’s differences. They don’t carry their wallets, money, keys etc on their person as men typically do. They carry them in their purses. Coins. Money. Things that I take for granted I have with me. Keys. Credit Cards. Etc. Etc. It became clear to me why a woman’s purse is so much more important than maybe most men would consider. Maybe that comes into play somewhere down the road in my writing.
I do have a story that already has helped my perspective of how a female feels/acts in a given situation. A close female in my life displayed a tendency to disappear for rather long periods of time. It baffled me because there would never be any ill feelings or reason for the “no contact” span. One day my coworker (the same one who’d gotten locked out of the office) made an offhanded comment about a friend who continued to call her.
“Why don’t you just call her back and see what she wants?” I asked with a true desire to relate it to the other female in my life.
“I want to talk to her,” my coworker said. “I’m just not ready to talk to her yet.” Men just don’t typically act that way with friends. It’s not a “right thing” or a “wrong thing” – it’s just a male/female thing. So armed with this knowledge and less defensive than I’d normally be, I broached the topic with the other lady. We had an in-depth discussion which helped me understand a bit of what she was feeling/experiencing. Years later when I writing a scene in my novel Dream War, I had a similar situation arise in my fiction. I couldn’t slow down the pacing, but I had to quickly and with some emotion, explain why a daughter hadn’t talked to her father in years. Here’s what I wrote:
Kat took a deep breath that didn’t fill her with much confidence. It had been a long time since she’d talked to her dad, and she wasn’t sure how to feel. She hadn’t intended to fall out of touch. Nothing had happened to make her not want him in her life. The first couple years, she had rationalized it as protecting him—then, as protecting the operation. But that was just an excuse; Lopez maintained contact with his son. In any case, months had turned into years, and, at some point, not calling had become the status quo Phone to ear, she heard the odd European ring and worried about his judgment of her. Honestly, that fear had held her back from calling more than anything else. Now he was to become involved“Pronto?
“Dad, it’s me, Kat.
A few seconds of silence
“Hello, Katherine. How are you?
His voice was concerned rather than distant or resentful. It surprised her some, but the relief relaxed her stomach. It felt like a long time since she’d breathed
“I’m all right. You?”
Did I get it right? I don’t know. It’s not “Nicholas Sparks” good let alone “Sara Gruen” spectacular... but I believe I got it “more right” than had I not expanded my horizons and really listened to what females were telling me about their life experiences.
So hopefully this ability to ask questions and then listen will help us male writers to neither treat our female characters with kid gloves, or to brutalize them as mere objects. It will allow female writers avoid penning male characters so loving and sensitive that they’d never survive one day on a middle school playground—let alone an afternoon with Melvin Udall!
I’d love to hear stories of how to better understand & write the opposite sex!
Stephen Prosapio was born in Louisville
Kentucky and grew up in the southwest
suburbs of Chicago. He received his Bachelors
of Arts degree in Political Science from DePaul
University.
After reporting for one of the nation's largest
fantasy football websites,footballguys.com, he
wrote his first novel, Dream War. Competing against 2,676
other novels, Dream War won a Top Five Finalist
award in Gather.com's 2007 First Chapters contest,
and was released as an eBook in July of 2010.
His paranormal suspense novel Ghosts of Rosewood
Asylum is scheduled for print and digital
release in 2011.
Stephen works as an executive recruiter and
resides in Oceanside, California.
77 comments:
I know that women sometimes rely on "intuition" more than do me. (We do it, too, though we prefer to call it "a hunch".)
I have learned to listen to Susan when her "intuition' speaks. It has saved me from several situations which could have turned out badly.
I also have heard men snicker that women "don't think logically". I believe that they do though it is a different kind of logic. Men usually think vertically while women think laterally--thinking around corners, so to speak. Let something interrupt a man working from point A to point Z and he usualy has to back up and start all over again. (This is my own experience naturally.)
A woman whose proceedure is interrupted by a sudden problem or obstacle will take the interruption into account and utilize the "new" data in solving the ultimate problem. (This is not the clearest way to express this but it is the best that I can do.)
i can only regard such an ability with something approaching awe. Wish I could be that clever.
Sound like a great book stephen. Good luck on this and any future project.
Dana/Inara, You've come through with another in depth subject. That's why I never want to miss one of these parties. LOL. :-)
Adele, Thanks again for having Dana host these evenings. And good luck with your swordsmanship. LOL.
Jack is first! Welcome, everyone, to RR Wednesday!
Excellent first comment, Jack.
Hello All! Thanks for stopping by.
I'm out here in California and hope Dana has saved me a glass of something red.
Jack, thanks for your comments. I've definitely noticed that women have a pretty uncanny ability to "read" one another (at least much more so than I can!) and I wonder if that's intuition or a better ability to notice and either consciously or subconsciously interpret subtle gestures, tones, postures etc.
Conversely, I've noticed women are sometimes surprised when there's less to interpret from what a man says or does. I hope comments like that (or my original blog) come across as misogynistic or paternal. We've gotten so "PC" in the past couple of decades that we've lost being able to speak openly about our differences--to celebrate them and to learn from them.
In writing characters with uniqueness, I think it's important first to take into account some of the more basic blueprints of how that character looks at the world. The broad strokes male/female, culture, location they were raised in, economic class they grew up in etc. And then we can begin to construct unique experiences that shaped them as people.
Steve, my dear, nothing but the rest red for you!
I really enjoyed your post, especially after our email exchange re: those books written by male authors who basically used women as tools to enable the men to react with lots of testosterone.
Hi Dana,
Mmmmmmmm wine.
Thanks for your comments. The post took a bit of a turn in the sense that I tried to look at the "thing behind the thing" Why are female characters being brutalized, raped and treated in other repulsive ways? I think a lot of it has to do with a lack of understanding and a lack of empathy. That's not to say that no bad thing should ever happen to characters in novels (treating female characters with kid gloves being the opposite end of the spectrum), but that "Shock Jock" value is an artificial attempt to try and evoke emotion. And what I've noticed in many cases, the female characters are little more than the screaming extras that they cast in slasher films. Acting in stupid ways that results in them being brutalized.
Would any woman here take a ride from a stranger after her car gets a flat tire? Wait! Let me add some details... You're with your young child. Two different men have stopped to offer you a ride. One of them has a cell phone and has let you use it to call your husband who isn't home. Oh yeah, and there's a serial killer/rapist on the loose kidnapping women with their young children.
That's not what writing a novel should be!
I also think...to make a gross generalization, a lot of times female characters are portrayed like "the Other." You know? I mean, yes, men and women are different. But we're also all humans, and generally it's possible to suss out human motivations.
Beyond biology, I think the main differences between male and female behavior are the different roles that men and women have in a culture. Yeah, we've come a long way, etc., but it still isn't the same. Women may be better at reading people and more intuitive because when you are not the dominant group in the culture, you have to be. It's a matter of survival.
Interesting post, Steve, and much good luck on DREAM WAR. It's a great book, and you've done an awesome job getting it out there!
Thanks Other Lisa!
Yes, I've heard about that theory about women being able to read people better, but I didn't want to be the first to say that. I believe... okay I *know* first hand that it also applies to those of us who grew up with unstable and/or abusive parents. Having to sense what kind of mood Mom (or Dad) was in or getting in becomes a way of coping and surviving.
One of the things that drives me crazy (need to write the book about it and then I can let it drop) is the tendency that has become the mainstay of Hollywood cinema: Movies with Women -- or even worse, Movies with 1 Woman. Beyond the Bechdel test, there's little investment in women apart from "prizes" for men, either goads or scolds. As Lisa said, they're treated as Others, somehow less than human. In films, they seldom do more than encourage or caution the male, offer sex or get into peril. Films supposedly aimed at women are even worse (but I wrote my column last week about that, so I won't go on about it).
Stephen's right: listen and pick up on those culturally inculcated differences. They still exist because I see my supposedly liberal and modern friends repeat the same behaviours, saying "Boys are just more rambunctious" when they allow their sons to run around bellowing, but stop their daughters for doing the same thing.
I just got up, so let's say a Bellini for me :-)
Okay, it IS early: Movies WITHOUT Women, of course.
Mine's an iced coffee Dana love.
Welcome to Un:Bound Stephen. :)
Hi Jack. Always here wth something thoughtful, love it.
I liked the comment made about this subject on SF Novelists, something along the lines of write a character first and a gender second .As a reader i'd agree, if you write a compelling character it'll matter less what sex they are, you maybe just need to remember they are different in certain fine details. But also the lifestyle or job of your character may inform behaviour more than sex. A woman who works in a very physical outdoor job may be as strong as an average guy and may shun the handbag (purse for you Americans ;p ) in favour of wallet and keys in the jacket because it's impractical. Women who work in an office have the luxery of lugging a bag around everywhere. etc. Interesting topic guys.
I've been figuring out a conflict with a friend has a lot to do with gendered behaviour, specifically how men and women tend to approach arguing differently. I realise that the two friends who were arguing saw the situation from completely different perspectives. For him, it was important to "win" an intellectual contest; for her, it was an attack on her, not just a disagreement on a topic. So she's insulted and he's mystified (and I, of course, the eternal middle child, am mending the rift). Talking to two male friends last night about arguing, they both were a bit shamefaced to admit that winning an argument was very important to them, although they both also said that, aware of this tendency, they have tried to fight against it (oh, yes -- the irony of that phrasing!).
Good job on getting Dream Wars out there, Steve.
As a woman, I can tell you I resent being one. I love men, but I'd rather be a gay guy then a woman. Wanting to be born a woman is like wanting to be born without your right arm.
As far as cross dressing goes, I love to eavesdrop on men's conversations, particularly when they don't think anyone else is listening. Young males are less guarded and thus I have better access to their minds then older males.
One conversation revolved around dating, girls, and when to introduce them to your male friends. Though a large group of five or six guys only two were expressing opinions when one of the others saw the girl he was attempting to woo in a different seating area and planning his approach. He was lamenting how she was surrounded by a bunch of other guys. (I could go into some fun hunting/stalking analogies here, but I was fascinated listening to the fears and strategies of the male mind.)
Anyway, he wanted to find a way to get her separated from the other males. You know, stake a claim. Our two opinion guys chime in:
Guy1: I won't bring her to get-togethers for awhile and take her places away from their mutual friends. Not until she's bonded. (Think imprinting)
Guy2: Hell no! I introduce her to all my friends right away, if she's going to start flirting (he used slightly more graphic language) with one of them then I can get out of it faster.
Remember these are young males, maybe 19-22 years old, but their insecurity is rather sweet. At least that's the way I see it, as a female.
As far as women's abilities to analyze nuances in character, being physically inferior in many ways it behooves us to be able to read intent.
Congrats Steve. Looking forward to reading Dream Wars. Dana, tell Sexy Wrists that the clan was Robertson for the plaid.
Wow! I finally sign on this morning (we're having trouble with the internet at work) and see you've been hopping without me! Drinks all around!
Now to read the comments... and if I vanish again, it's the 'net.
Yer Hostess.
Steve it is so good to see you promoting DWs.
Asking questions and then listening is key to getting the opposite sex correct for the situation. You've done well with it.
When a male friend of mine told me, 'No man thinks this way,' about a line where my MC looks at his shabby shirt and decides he needs a new one before he goes to see the female lead.
I grew up with two brothers. I was forever 'one of the guys' so I had an in to things most women never get to see. Men DO care, on occasion, they just don't want the woman involved to know that. So I took it out as unnecessary, not wishing to make him look unnecessarily whimy.
There's a line to be walked when cross dressing, asking a person in the know is always a good idea.
Congrats Steve!
It's early in paradise and I'm tired, so I'll take a shot of espresso~
Congrats on Dream Wars, sounds great! I really like the cover. Your comments are right on. If only more had such insight.
Heh. Viv, I will tell Sexy Wrists what you said, although I'm sure he'll be by to add his two cents.
This is a great conversation already, folks! Kate/Margery, so good to see you and I have to go read your article on movies for and without women. Sounds like my cup of tea... or glass of wine.
I recently read a book by someone who I very much like and admire as a person, but his female characters were passive - there only to get kidnapped, raped (gang-raped in front of a camera) and motivate their menfolk into a Rambo type attack to get them back. Oh, and one of the women was mind/physically raped by a sexy female vampire and although she was humiliated and hated it, she still liked it. I will say the author did NOT describe the gang rape at all other than to have the woman think how sore she was after the fact... but he did describe the gal on gal scenes in loving detail. Male fantasy time all the way.
Hi, Sherrilyn and Rebecca!
Espresso coming up, my lovely...
After reading my post it is clear that I need a coffee IV. Oh the shame of it.
Coffee for Sherilyn! :-)
May I have some coffee please Dana? First thing is to wake up.
There ARE women who could drink Rambo under the table--or put him six feet under. (You decide which is preferable.)
I fear that most men have not left the high school locker room banter in which women are merely there to satisfy masculine pleasure. (I remember the HS rumors about certain girls who were considered desirable: "Hell she gives it to everybody", and so forth. There was never anyone to say :"How do YOU know all this? Have YOU been one of the lucky ones?" This would at least have started a jeering contest or, worse, "a bust in the chops".)
I don't mind the question: "Why are men so stupid?" because, by and large, we ARE a stupid gender.
At least most of us still think testosterone is the way to go. Why else has Viagra and its fellow drugs seems the most important "medication" after a certain age. (Say...the sixties.)
We males have become so rooted in our worship of the orgasm that we tend to panic when the batteries run down. Just think "emasculation" and you have the older guy's view of total disaster.
And it IS a disaster--if the almighty orgasm is your touchstone to a "fulfilled " life. And I do know whereof I speak here. I'm sixty three at present and doomed to get older if I don't wind up kicking the bucket any time soon.
Who fulfills my life? Susan, my wife, who has put up with more than any woman should have. Also my friends (among whom I count Dana and Adele and everyone else who have admitted me into their company. You all have helped to make my life worth living and I thank and love you all.
End of sermon. Stephan, you keep on rocking. Dana and Adele, thank you both for some very happy moments at the beginning of my twilight years. I love you both especially. Keep truckin'. LOL.
See, Jack, if more men were as wise as you, more women wouldn't be asking why men are so stupid. Stephen, you are not stupid either. :-)
Holy Cow!
As you all can see from my last posts, my writing group got out rather late, so I’m a bit tardy to the party this morning. Just sipping my first coffee now. I’ve read about half the comments and want to get started, so I’ll be back to comment on the later ones.
Very interesting about the difference in how men/women argue. I’d suspect that’s a broad generalization, but sometimes it’s better to start with that—or at least be *cognizant* of it (especially in an argument) and then personalize your message.
I definitely know both men and women who are more interested in winning an argument than solving a problem, but I do think it's definitely more of a guy thing. I will say my bf, Dave, is much more likely to want to solve the problem than win and for this, I am very grateful.
Thanks all for the welcome by the way. And thanks Dale!
I find VA’s eavesdropping very interesting! We were all taught that eavesdropping is rude… and for a writer I don’t think there’s any better way to “get” dialogue!
My favorite conversations to listen to are young girls. For me, they’re akin to 3D Art. If I listen to them long enough and kind of maintain an unfocused focus, their rhythm and nuance begins to appear!
:-)
As for that conversation, it’s clear to me that those “men” (if 30 is the new 20, I shudder to think what 20 year old men are equal to), view women as objects. It would be a perfect world if we all treated each other equally and with love, but it sure makes for terrible fiction!!! What I hear KA saying though is that while women being treated as objects can be a great source of conflict… it shouldn’t be standard fare that’s not a part of the story. Not *every* woman is merely a sidekick!
We can solve a problem or we can win an argument (Read: Conquer.)Obviously the first is more mportant. Then why do we opt for the second?
How many wars have started because of the second solution? :-(
Steve, first off, you do know I love Dream War, and many congrats on getting it out there!
I'm loving the men vs. women discussion. I write romance. Specifically, historical romance, when men were macho and women had no rights. I love writing alpha heroes, with their few words and locked up emotions, but since it IS romance, and women dream about men who meet their emotional needs, the male character DOES eventually have say something mushy, even he then goes out and restores his macho-ness by beating the bad guy senseless. I've worked in male dominated environments most of my life (military, broadcasting, and information technology). I think I know men very well. And I would NEVER have a male character describing a sunset or futzing about what he's wearing. Heck, most of the time I don't even have them thinking in complete sentences, since they apparently communicate within their groups with mostly laughs, gestures, and shorthand-speak.
Tougher to do is the 21st century heroine in a 19th century world. In romance, the "victim/weak/cardboard" heroine is called TSTL (Too Stupid To Live),and is a very bad thing to have in your novel. It stuns me how many women write TSTL heroines even today. I believe in protraying women as they have always been, in spite of whatever the social strictures of whatever time they live in--women who are clever, inventive, creative, strong, and who know how their can be great strength in apparent weakness.
Hi Steve. Congrats on getting DW out; I look forward to reading it in final form.
I think writing characters of the opposite sex is a real challenge, but it's a necessary part of the writer's craft. I like your example of the purse, since it's a little thing, but one which has profound implications. It's a good reminder to take more care when writing scenes with women characters -- is the character really plausible or just acting out a guy's wish list?
Sherilyn,
That is classic!!! I must confirm what your friend told you. The first question we’d ask is: Is this shirt *really* wrinkled enough I’d have to iron it? And then, of course, we’d convince ourselves that it won’t look as wrinkled on us as it does as close as we’re seeing it/as it does on the hanger/as it will when we get there/and so on.
Rebecca,
Thank you very much!
Dana,
Wow. Just wow. Personally, I don’t see how any gang rape scene (or allusions to it) makes it into any novel with erotica elements. Here’s a question… maybe a toughie. What novels *have* shown violence to women that wasn’t gratuitous, done well, necessary to the plot? I’m racking my brain…
Quote of the day:
"I don't mind the question: 'Why are men so stupid?' because, by and large, we ARE a stupid gender."
Why I never!!! Okay, I sometimes... and almost always (generalization coming) men tend to be *simpler* than women. One of the things I think women writers sometimes miss is that men don't often have hidden agendas. And when we do, we typically don't hide them well. We want what we want and then we endeavor to get it. Except for when we're too damn lazy.
OK Stephen. I'll go with that---except in the case of political types who ALWAYS have hidden agendas. Why? I think you'd have to ask them. ;-)
Kat!
I hadn’t scrolled down far enough and just sent you an invite to join us! Miss you!
I love TSTL – is that a used acronym that I’m late to be exposed to? I love it!
Interesting points about writing historical stories. And the same holds true for the future. How much/different will gender issues be 50 years from now? 100? Does anyone read JD Robb’s “In Death” series? I’ve read one of them and her heroine has a nice balance of put-together career woman and lady with femininity.
Jack,
As I said. We don't hide agendas well. Especially political ones!
:-)
Steve, your child growing up in an abusive household-- exactly. Those are the kinds of social/cultural circumstances that create observant/intuitive behavior.
I think gendered behavior is a lot like sexuality--it's not an absolute, it's governed by many factors and it's on a scale (like the Kinsey scale for heterosexuality versus homosexuality).
And by the way, the women and shoes thing? I so do not get it. Shoes should be comfortable and I should be able to walk a long way in them.
James,
Nice to see you. Thanks for stopping in and your interest in Dream War. I'd really love to hear your thoughts on the finished version. I think folks that have read since the contest are going to be pleasantly surprised!
Interestingly enough and on topic, I'd started writing a sequel to DW a couple years back (and might pick it up again). The female character (Kat) used in the quote on the post was "called upon" by the gang to join them in their "quest" near the begining of the novel. To their-- AND MY surprise and dismay, she refused!!! It really threw me for a loop. I think it took me a week to write again and rethink the novel without her, but her "life" had moved on, and based on events in the first novel, her path didn't take her into the sequel.
Lisa - shoes to you = NASCAR for me. I just don't get it. I'll watch golf, heck I'll even watch people play cards, but when I get to the point where watching cars drive around in circles captivates me, please inject brain with bullet.
Wow, what a fantastic post and comment thread it is today! Thanks for getting this ball rolling, Stephen. And Dream Wars DOES sound very cool.
I agree that writing cross-gender is one of the toughest writing exercises; and I'm very gratified when readers tell me I got it right in stories like "Later Days, Saints!" Writing erotica across the gay -straight divide is also pretty darn tough, but personally writing the romance is the toughest part.
I'm always on the lookout for glimpses into how the female mind works; it never fails to amaze me the different approaches men and women (and children/adults for that matter!)take to everything...
-Kilt
Hey, Steve. Got this invitation! And TSTL is a very common term among romance writers, prolly because so many old romances had them. You encounter it in slasher films--radio says a homicidal maniac is on the loose, and yet the young blonde bimbo insists on going down to the basement alone to check the scary noise, without a light or weapon. TSTL. LOL!
And I don't get the shoes thing either. Oh, and on the topic of purses, if you look at most women's business clothes, you'll notice they're made without pockets. Stupid. When I worked, I wore a blazer every day, and refused to buy one if it didn't have usable pockets, precisely so I could carry ID, a pen, and change for the vending machine. Like high heels, pocketless clothes are a way of rendering a woman less independant.
Wow, I step away for an hour and things go crazy yet again! Hi, all you newcomers! Drinks?
Steve, the scenes in the book I mentioned weren't erotic in the least other than you could tell the author really thought the lesbian scene was arousing or he wouldn't have gone into details on it. I'm glad he didn't go into details on the gang rape and beatings, 'cause it would have really been nasty. As it was, it was just distasteful and the sad thing is I truly don't think he realizes how much it objectified the women in his books. It wouldn't have taken much even WITH the gang rape to have at least turned them from passive to active... but he didn't. That almost bugged me as much as the casual mention of gang rape.
Oh, and I used to get the shoes thing a bit more than I do now. I never wore outrageous heels like those godawful Italian pointy toed, high heeled Barbie shoes, but I did wear shoes that definitely were more for appearance than comfort. Those days are long gone...
Bet you looked pretty good in them too. No matter what they did to your feet. ;-)
yeah, they looked good, but OUCH!!!!! Ah, the vanity of youth. :-)
Kilt, thanks for stopping by.
Dana, I’m wiped. I don’t suppose you have massive amounts of Diet Coke standing by?
Kat – TSTL. Annoying in movies. Even worse in books!!!
Dana, that’s horrendous. It sounds like he made it just another bad day at the office for her!
Man: Hi honey, thanks for having my Martini ready for me. (sniff sniff) Dinner smells terrific. I hope it's done soon. Aren’t you going to ask me about my day?
Her: Sure! How was your day? [an hour later after he's talked and she's listened] Don’t you want to hear about my day?
Man: Yeah sure. Anything important happen?
Her: Well it was rough. The mechanic over charged me. My boss yelled at me for typing his memo wrong. I was gang raped on camera, and the cleaners couldn’t get that chocolate stain out of my best sun dress.
Man: I think I’ll splurge and have a 3rd martini. (hands her the glass) mind hon? Thanks. Hey what was that about the mechanic???
Steve, LOL!!!!
And we have every beverage you could want here. It's the magic of Un:Bound and Ravenous Wednesday... :-)
On a serious note, I can't remember where but maybe on Justine Musk's blog? I read a great post on how as fiction writers we have a responsibility to portray death and violence with at least some sensitivity.
I'd love to hear how some have tried to do that or of things people have read which handle those issues responsibly.
Hmmm...
Would a hearing Aid have helped this guy? Or maybe all he needs is just a swift kick in the,ahhhhhhh... Well whereveer you think is most approapriate.
"Sometimes you have to slap them in the face to get theitr attention." (Carol Kane in "Scrooged")
There was a point in the book where it was revealed to the men trying to find the women that they'd been gang raped. One man's response was to sigh. Er... okay then.
I'm totally with Kat on the fun of writing with the constraints of a setting in the past. Not only is the research fun, but knowing that people are very much the same but had to deal with far more restrictive rules -- the characters have to be creative and the authors, too. And as for eavesdropping -- it's one of the chief pleasures of that time before class begins, listening to all their conversations. They never guess how much I glean from it (unless I can't help myself and laugh out loud).
And Lisa, I'm with you on the shoes/handbag thing -- I wear Doc Martens and my only requirement in a bag is that it be plain and black leather and carry what I need to carry.
Ha, Jack! I love Carol Kane in Scrooged! She's so delightful.
My pet peeve is the way that some authors think that a "strong female character" means they have to put her in latex and make her kick ass. A complicated and nuanced female character can be physically weak -- she just has to be active, do things herself and not just react.
When Stephen King tried to address the frequent criticisms of his female characters, he tried to make them more active in a sense, but it was still the fact that their whole lives revolved around men (Delores Claiborne, Rose Madder, etc). Is it really that hard to imagine a woman whose life doesn't revolve around a man? It shouldn't be because I know we have a lot of real world examples right here.
I think James Mclendon tries to do this in his novel DEATHWORK, which fictionally covers the first multiple electrocution carried out in the State of Florida.
By the time the book was finished I began to really understand the emotions aroused in the opponents of the death penalty.
At the same time I really don't know what to do with the Charles Mansons, the Charley Starkweathers or the Uni Bombers of the world. Because most of them won't change. It isn't that they can't; they won't. So I'm really in a quandry here.
Possibly Stephen King's THE GREEN MILE is a close second. And i know there have to be others. I just can't think of any others at the moment. TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD maybe.
Thanks for posing a very good question, Stephen. LOL. :-)
Thanks Jack, I'm quite well known for having a lot of good questions (and not many good answers).
Welcome Kit. Thanks for your post. Keep eavesdropping and let us know what you learn!
cmkempe - King is an idol of mine, but his stories certainly are of a male slant. I think I'd rather have an author be true to their talents/voice/calling than to try to do something just to do it. And didn't he try that one where the woman is tied to the bed or something? Gerald's Game? I passed on that one. No thanks.
I have to agree with you about GERALD'S GAME, ELLEN RIMBAUR as well as PATH OF THE ECLIPSE. Frankly I believe he made a big mistake in deserting his first love, which was the goldne age of the horror pulps. (Especially Weird Tales and Unknown/ Unknown Worlds which presented the pinnacle of good fantasy of that era.)
Of course he is free to explore other areas and I wish him all the luck in the world. But if he wants to write Bout women he might start by consulting his wife, Tabitha.
I know he and Tabby claim that they confer on everything he writes. My question is how much does he really listen? I always assumed that he did. But then I'm a long time King admirer, though disappointed in some of his later output.
(Even in a book like CELL, paranoia is only good for so long. Then it becomes irritating.
Gerald's Game is my least favorite King novel. It was just nasty and unpleasant, but I don't think it was anti-woman. Just unpleasant. And kinda stupid.
Well, everybody has to have a bad day sometime or other. Same thing with bad books. occaisionally every author comes up with one. Especially if said author is angsting over being typed.
That, btw, hasn't happened to you. But then you write what you enjoy; not what someone else might think you should write.
Nothig you have written is in the "stupid" catagory. Nor do I think anything you come up with ever will be.
LOL. :-)
Cell. A King-sized Blunder. I think Tabby only read the first half of that book cuz no one with any creativity approved the second half of that.
"Hey let's pretend we know why this happened and how we can overcome it."
"Yeahhhhhhh. Good idea."
"How does it all end?"
"It really--
Jack, you are too kind! :-)
Stephen, re: Cell... OH yeah...
Great advice. I made the men I work with nervous by telling them I was watching ... for my next book. LOL I will also have men read it and take their advice. It is important to listen and watch.
All success to you on the new book.
Thanks MPax. Yes if you don't like hearing gossip, the fastest way to shut people up is to remind them that it might end up in your work in progress!
:-)
Oh, and what Kat #1 said about women's clothes with no pockets! I second that!
My little rebellion, one of them anyway, is to wear cargo pants/shorts as often as possible.
Well, that will teach her not to smoke. Many accomplished novelists portray female characters without inhabiting their heads. To do that one has to view them realistically via the male POV as we see women in society. With close POV's the desired literary vehicle, be it first person or close third, jumping back and forth between male and female can be a problem and more so from attempting to feel the female experience. Most men can even understand it to begin with and many more don't want to. Those guys are easy to portray, the women not so much. I go with fully realized women characters as seen, and felt, by the men in the story.
Publishing is tough and I never congratulate self-publication, which is the venue for books that get rejected. I did predict this particular outcome three years ago. My view is they are turned away by the professional publishing community for a reason.
Dana - I've noticed that it's after midnight London time. Has my carriage turned into a pumpkin or do we continue going into Wed evening CA time?
Lisa - yeah. I was going to comment on that one earlier. I can't imagine pants without pockets. Or pockets without pants for that matter!
Mark Y - Nice to see that your acute awareness for all things obvious has made you both successful and popular. Keep up the good work. And hey, for $2.99 you can give me 1 star for old times sake... and continue to be in the vast minority!
:-)
From past experience i'd say that your carriage does NOT turn into a pumpkin. This party generally continues until everybody wears out. One or two of us may drop out due to the need for sleep (What a drag!) but the party generally goes on as long as evrybody wishes.
General rule is to stay as long as you like (or can) and enjoy yourself.
Thanks Jack! And I'll be back. A good group of people.
Dana, if it's okay, can I leave the link to my FB fan page? So people here cna keep up with my goings on?
(and considering the title of my novel, I'm a bit concerned with my word verification "Warswarn")
Sorry I came late to the party, Stephen, but your post was spot on! I write women often and enjoy doing it. And, today, having a major female character is necessary--many thriller writers have been advised by their agents/editors to have a major female character or even to change their protagonist's to female. That's because of the market as women buy far more books than men, but even if it's a bottom-line thing, it's good for literature in broadening it.
I have an exercise I teach that's helpful in getting into another character's head. I assign personas to students--nun, priest, cop, siding salesman, German shepherd... up to 40 different personas--and have them walk about the campus and take notes of their surroundings through the eyes of the character assigned. They come back and read their descriptions and the class has to guess who or what they are. Almost all are guessed just by the details they include. We all "see" details because of who or what we are, while other details are invisible to us that another person sees. For instance, walking down a city block, a welfare worker might spot the tricycle in the yard that has the bag of whiskey empties in the trash, while right behind her, a guy who sells house siding might not even see the tricycle but see the worn siding on the house next to it. That kind of thing.
Anyway, great post! Thanks for sharing.
Blue skies,
Les
Good thinking Les. Truly creative as well as a good discipline. I must read some of your stuff.
Thanks for dropping by. I'm sure Dana and Stephen woukld agree that it's better late than never. ;-)
Hey Les,
You're welcome any time of the day or night. I wonder if the Night Owl gang is just getting started here? What a great exercise! I'm going to try that one. It was interesting to go on a trip to a small town specifically to research a novel. I felt I did see it through my lead character's eyes and it was an odd experiece. Now I'll be trying that for other characters.
Thanks for your comments and thanks again for buying my novel--having one of my writing heroes buy my book was a highlight of my year!
Jack, "Hooked" is one of the best writing books I've read. Check it out for sure.
Stephen, you may link to anything ou like here! Feel free! And this goes as late as it goes. :-)
Stephen, I was struck by your comment about women's purses. I don't carry a purse, so neither do most of my women characters -- it just never occurred to me that most women did carry purses, and so should my characters. The one character who does deal with a purse did so because I needed her to carry some things. Even so, it took me a while to think: purse.
Hi Pat!
Thanks for swinging by to help me clean up. No worries. Dana and I will get this in the morning (oh man, that came out sounding bad).
I can relate to not being just like my gender. It's odd though because except for my stated NASCAR deficiency, I like most things guys like... but I also like many things they don't. I'm not admitting which movie I'm watching now. LOL
Well it has been a HOOT today folks. I really appreciate the participation. I'll definitely be checking back here. Rather than put an ugly link in the comments, if anyone is interested in "liking" my Facebook fanpage and following my journey, just click on my name on THIS post and it will link you to that site.
Ciao!
Steve, thank you so much for being a stellar guest and taking part in the comment thread! And they thought it was just all about erotic romance on RR Wednesdays... :-)
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