Welcome to Ravenous Wednesday, back after a short break so your hostess could get her brain back on track. Or at least headed in the right direction! Today's guest is, in his alter ego, one of our Ravenous Romance authors, but today he is here under his own name, David Fitzgerald, to talk about his recently published non-fiction book NAILED.
Because of my close relationship with said author, the lovely Adele agreed to interview David so we'd have a less fawning, more objective interview! Not that I don't love ALL my RR authors and special guests. I absolutely do. But ... y'know...
I have to say I am absolutely delighted to see NAILED in its final published form. Dave was working on this book since he and I first started dating, five years ago. He spent many long hours researching, writing, revising, and has at least enough material written for two other books. So while I'm pleased as anything for Dave to finally see the fruition of all of this work, I am totally (and admittedly selfishly) thrilled to no longer be a NAILED widow.
Anyway, gather round, get comfy, put in your order for your favorite beverage, and please join the conversation after you read the interview!
A: Being asked to interview someone who's written a book about Jesus was an odd one for me. Turns out, it's not quite as simple as that.
Can you explain the premise of the book and your reasons for taking on the concept of Jesus never existing at all?
D: Sure! The funny thing is, I never set out to do a book on Jesus. Like everybody, I just assumed that there had to have really been a guy named Jesus. About ten years ago, I became curious to find out what we could actually know about what he really said and did. So I started looking into the historical evidence, and that’s where things got really interesting…
A: So it would be fair to say you are a skeptic?
D: On the subject of Jesus? No, now actually it’s stronger than that. Once you take a hard look at the historical evidence, it becomes very hard to believe that Jesus of Nazareth could have been real person at all. When he first appears in the genuine writings of Paul and other early Christians, it’s as a very different figure – a purely mythological one. It’s not until the Gospel of Mark is written (towards the end of the first century) that Jesus starts to get biographical information, and the story begins to grow. And there are still other reasons why the official story just doesn’t add up. So long story short, I don’t see how there even could have been such a person. In fact, I spend a whole chapter discussing how different things would be if Jesus had been an actual historical figure.
A: Do you think there were any real historical figures doing any of the work accredited to Jesus?
D: There are certainly elements from other figures that made their way into the Jesus story - for instance, John the Baptist and Pythagarus. Paul was certainly real, though most of what we like about him was made up by the author of Acts (and is contradicted by Paul’s genuine writings). Then there are real people like James and Peter, who originally were leaders of the Jerusalem church and later became characters in Gospel stories.
A: So how did you go about the research for the book?
D: I started by looking at the purported eyewitnesses for him - and right off the bat, that was a clue something was wrong – there actually are no contemporary witnesses for Jesus, and nothing we have in the New Testament was actually written by anyone who could claim to have known Jesus personally. What’s more, we have a wealth of first century historians and writers who were in the right time and place, and had good reason to take interest in Jesus’ exploits. But for the first century of Christianity, no one outside of his fringe cult noticed anything he said or did.
A: It's a pretty broad subject, how did you decide on what to examine in detail and was it difficult to keep the focus manageable?
D: I started by looking at the purported eyewitnesses for him - and right off the bat, that was a clue something was wrong – there actually are no contemporary witnesses for Jesus, and nothing we have in the New Testament was actually written by anyone who could claim to have known Jesus personally. What’s more, we have a wealth of first century historians and writers who were in the right time and place, and had good reason to take interest in Jesus’ exploits. But for the first century of Christianity, no one outside of his fringe cult noticed anything he said or did.
A: It's a pretty broad subject, how did you decide on what to examine in detail and was it difficult to keep the focus manageable?
D: Well, the first draft of the book was over 700 pages – for this version, I cut out everything that wasn’t directly related to the historical Jesus question. So a lot of stuff on the evolution of early Christianity and things like juicy dirt on the Apostle Paul will just have to wait for the next book!
A: So tell me what is an Evolutionpalooza?
A: So tell me what is an Evolutionpalooza?
D: Evolutionpalooza! is San Francisco’s oldest Darwin Day celebration. On or around Darwin’s birthday (February 12th), we throw a big birthday party and celebrate science and humanity. Remember, you can’t spell “I love U a ton, Zoo Pal!” without Evolutionpalooza!
A: What's more likely: God or aliens?
D: Oh, definitely aliens. Though the universe is so humongous and has been around so long, it seems like a long shot that we’ll be in the same time and place to meet any.
A: Where be dragons?
A: Where be dragons?
D: In the vast and limitless human imagination, where all things good and bad are born…
A: Finally, what animal (other than man) would you most like to be?
David Fitzgerald is a writer and historical researcher who has been actively investigating the Historical Jesus question for over ten years. He has a degree in history and was an associate member of CSER (the former Committee for the Scientific Examination of Religion). He lectures around the country at universities and national secular events and is best known for his popular multimedia presentation The Ten Thousand Christs and the Evaporating Jesus.
He has also been called “one of the busiest atheist activists in the Bay Area.” In addition to serving on the board of San Francisco Atheists, Center For Inquiry-SF and The Garrison-Martineau Project, he is also the Director/Co-Founder of both the world’s first Atheist Film Festival and Evolutionpalooza!, San Francisco’s annual Darwin Day celebration. He lives in San Francisco with writer, producer and ex-B movie actress Dana Fredsti, who verifies that he does indeed make cute noises.
40 comments:
Well, let me hop on board and say congratulations on the publication, David! I know when you work on something that long it can be like having a tumour removed ;-) you just want it OUT.
It's fascinating how people want to fill in that history; so many of the popular stories from the Middle Ages never achieved orthodox approval, but that didn't keep them from being incredibly popular. The Harrowing of Hell, which appears in the non-canonical Gospel of Nicodemus, shows up in tons of references in poetry. And all the Jesus-as-a-boy stories! They loved those in the Middle Ages. Some lovely art depicting his boyhood deeds, like killing one of his mates in a fit of pique and then bringing him back to life when he dad got mad. Great stuff!
Kate, the first to visit!!! What can I get you to drink, my lovely?
I'd really like some ice cold Zubrowka neat. Just a shot to warm up as I think I need to pass the keyboard over to CMK tonight as she's cruising along on her latest (when she's not sending naughty texts).
Hey, I'm trying to work here! This is research you understand. I suffer for my art.
Dana, I'll have some Zubrowka, but mix mine into a Frisky Bison. It will set the mood.
Add my congratulations -- and I'd like to ask David whether he thinks the explosion of atheist activism will turn the tide in America away from the scary fundamentalism that has dominated the nation since the late 80s.
Zubrowka for my favorite rascally ladies... and I'm sending David over here to start answering questinos!
Kate! Thanks! You're not kidding about the birth pains - get it out!!
Isn't it amazing how much more Christian would-be scripture got cranked out over the centuries? Those infancy gospels are wild - very it's-GOOD-you-wished-them-into-the-cornfield-Son...
-D
Margery, my favorite Frisky Bison fancier, you! Great question - I do have optimism over the long run, though the fundies will get more strident and desperate on their way out. It's ironic that both believers and non-believers each believe that they are outnumbered by their enemies and that the other side is winning.
But it's getting harder for preachers to just say anything and not get fact-checked anymore, and with the internet even the most isolated red-state heretics can find like-minded friends. And the fact is, Christianity just isn't true, and that fact is getting more obvious all the time...
I'm always interested in the histories of texts and the Bible one is fascinating. What goes in, what goes out -- and why. I am eternally amuse by the people who are literal interpreters of translations that are a long way from the original Greek and Hebrew. So much invested in it -- I always stun my students with the fact that in the time of John Wycliffe (14thC) translating the Bible into the vernacular was punishable by death. Latin really had an authority for a long time, but the Douay-Rheims was still a translation.
Morning everyone! Since it's still very early, I'll take a hot chocolate. Any additions you care to put in, I'll leave to you, Dana!
I remember in undergrad taking a bible as history course and thinking it wasn't so much history as it was my religious ed classes all over again! Course, it was also one of the few freshman classes left, and I'd registered late. Not the point.
Congrats on the publication, Dave!
Good morning, all!
Isabel, hot chocolate with a hint of cinnamon and chili topped with thick whipped cream...
cinnamin hot choc sounds good to me too!!
@ Dana:
It's not too early for a Guinness, is it? Unless you ladies on the other side of the pond have any MacKesson's Triple Stout handy, do you?
Kate, I'm so with you! I'm also fascinated by just how many different cultures, philosophies and religions contributed to what we think of as Judeo-Christianity.
-D
Morning, Isabel!
Too funny about your Bible as History course! One major problem with studying the Bible as history is that it doesn't contain very accurate history...
Un:BOund is a U.K. site. Of COURSE, there is Mack XXX Stout!!!
It's later. I'll take a very stong G&T. But the hot chocolate with cinnamon was delicious! Hit the spot. :)
So Dave, what made you start your research? Your post said you were curious about 10 years ago. What started that?
Id like to read that myself. Its kinda funny, but we debate with theists about Jesus being the son of God and all of what that entails via the bible, but the direct, and more apt question of "Did Jesus exist?" is only ever covered in fleeting comments. So yeah, great to have a book that deals with this question alone. It was only recently i read that there is no record of a town called Nazereth ever existing either, so this whole malarkey is one hell of a yarn lol.
G&T for ya, m'dear! I'll make sure Dave knows he's got questions to answer too...
Howdy, Snaggletooth, and welcome to Un:Bound!
Very late arriving but I'm here at last!
The problem with Biblical history is that few of the scrolls were meant to be of a historical rather than a didactic nature. There ARE the scrolls of Samuel and Kings but even here we have the interpretation of the so- called Court Historian...and even these have been edited for the Israelite reader's comsumption. (I shouldn't have to refer to the four traditions which make up the original Torah.)
Thr Christian writings were also designed for their catechetical, rather than their historical value.
As far as the fundies are concerned, well, I doubt they will be willing to admit anything which contradicts their universal view.
Anyway may the Great Bird of the Galaxy (whatever or whoever that is) smile upon your efforts.
\
Jack! So lovely to see you here! What's your poison?
Think I'll take a hot chocolate if you please, Dana. It's good to be here.
YOu got it, Mr. Young! Now where the heck is that Fitzgerald fellah?
@ Isabel:
There's an awesome book by Ken Smith called KEN'S GUIDE TO THE BIBLE -highly reccomended! In it Ken points out verses that make Jesus out to be anti-materialistic (Commie Jesus) or gluttonous (Tubby Jesus. The whole thing made me wonder about all the scholarly reconstructions of "the real Jesus" and what he was really like and really did. Surprise!
Thanks Snaggletooth! Great comment. Though these days I'm officially agnostic on the "Was Nazareth around in Jesus' day?" question. My friends Frank Zindler and Rene Salm are convinced it didn't; but my friend Richard Carrier points out that most of the arguments are inconclusive - at best they only show that the Gospel writers didn't know squat about Nazareth.
For me, I find it's just not worth going into the geographic issues because they're ultimately inconclusive, and there are better reasons to question the gospel stories...
-DF
Ok, been out, am back, hugs for everyone, extra hugs for lovely Jack for just being Jack. Howdy to Snaggletooth, always lovely to hear from someone new and Dana my love more hot chocolate is freaking freezing over here!! :)
Also with Un:Bound is international and it's always Guiness time somwhere.
Hi Jack! Welcome!
You said it! And as you point out, even when they CLAIM to be history, they are really propaganda, either pro-monarchy (David, Solomon) or anti-(Jezebel, Omri, etc.). Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman's book THE BIBLE UNEARTHED does a great job dissecting the Old Testament.
In the New Testament, I get frustrated with Christianity's most beloved historian, "Luke"- because most of his "history" is demonstrably plagiarized or just outright lies. If there was room in the book for an 11th myth, I could have included "Luke was a brilliant historian." Even by ancient standards, he was a crappy historian. He WAS a brilliant historical novelist, but no historian!
Though here's an interesting thing about Luke - I strongly suspect "he" was actually a woman. Luke goes out of his way to promote female characters, get into their thoughts, and generally in touch with his feminine side. If true, i t would mean a full quarter of the NT was written by a woman...
Congrats again, Dave, on getting this book published & out there.
While I have no problem with people wanting to believe in Jesus & his teachings (we all have our illusions as to what life is "really" like), it bothers me when people use that belief to berate, belittle or kill people for disagreeing.
I, too, think it will be interesting to note the cultural shift in attitude as the bible is increasingly proven to be nothing more than the best-selling novel of all time.
Big hugs to you both!
Alyx
p.s. Dana, I'll take a virgin daquiri, please. ;o)
There ya go, Alyx, and welcome to Un:Bound! I love your quote about 'the best-selling novel of all time...'
Welcome Alyx, lovely to see newcomers commenting tonight. :) Being in the UK, it's nearly my bed time, so pour me something that's going to knock me out Dana angel.
David, good luck with the book, I have started it and am really enjoying it, which given I have zero ingterest in the subject matter is a testement to your writing!
Okay, a glass of lovely, dark and VERY high octane zinfandel for you, my dear! You'll be snoozing in no time...
Isn't it amazing how often the female hand shows up in Jewish/Christian tradition?
The Song of Songs bears the woman's touch, as do some of the Tehillim (Psalms).
If Luke was a woman, btw, she should be scolded at least for getting Jewish practice wrong. On the eighth day
after Jesus' birth, Luke notes, His mother took him to Jerusalem for "their purification". In Jewish law the only one who had to be "purified" was the mother. (This is what happens when writing of another culture which the author knows nothing about.)
I won't even go into whether he was born in a cave/stable or a house, as Matthew implies.
Facvorite cartoon: A space ship soars through the night sky. On the ground three men on camelback stare at it in wonder. From the ship comes this balloon: "I don't know who these jokers are, but they've been following us for the last twenty miles." ;-D
Hi Alyx - Thanks and so glad to see you here! What you said!
-D
@ Jack - LOVE the cartoon!
@ Hagelrat - G'night, & thanx for the welcome from across the pond. :o)
You said it, Jack! One verse in Song of Songs (5:5) says "I rose up to open to my beloved; and my hands dropped with myrrh, and my fingers with sweet smelling myrrh..." Oh MY...
It's funny how many similar mistakes the Gospel writers make. Luke blindly follows most of Mark's mistakes, unlike Matthew, who also copies material from Mark but corrects his mistakes.
Funny thing about the cave/stable. One early church father remarked how interesting that the cave in Bethlehem where Jesus was born was originally a sacred grove to Dionysus...
Well the conquering Romans supposedly erected a Temple to Diana (Artemis) over the site of Golgotha. (Or so St. Helena is supposed to have discovered.)So it appears we also have a conflict of Holy Places going on as well. Sound like another form of the "My God is Bigger than your God" game.
The same war is occuring today at Lourdes, Fatima, and other spots which are also considered sacred by neo pagans. (I should have mentioned Glastonbury as well.)
Congrats on your latest publication, Dave! Tommy and I are both huge religious buffs--from a atheistic and agnostic POVs, respectively. How does one go about getting a signed copy of NAILED?
Lisa! As Dave's manager (and knowing that he's currently away from his computer, having gone to Berkeley to see Sam Harris speak), if you want a signed copy, you would send him $25 for book/postage and he would happily mail you a copy... :-) It's also available on Amazon, but I think it's more expensive and it would NOT be signed...
Drink for you?
Yes, please--how about a nice hot coffee and kahlua? ;-)
E-mail me with payment details. $25.00 sounds fair (and I think Tommy would totally dig a copy for X-mas).
You got it, baby! Both the drink and the address. :-)
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